Lasevia and O2

[Mike4tr]

I have been on the phone for over an hour with O2 regarding a company called Lasevia who O2 regardless of the fact that they are openly scamming O2 and GIFF GAFF customers in which O2 are fully aware but have failed to safeguard any of their customers or warn us about this obvious scam.

On Sunday I received a text telling me that I was still subscribed to Books4you, I checked my bank account like I did the last time I received this text but I didn't see anything like the previous times.

Now they will say I should of called the number on the text but really, how many of us would call a random number from a random company saying you have subscribed to a website or service you have never heard of?

Also what if I call this number and I get charged a stupid amount to do so?

I then thought to check my O2 account in which I saw the charges so I called O2 straight away to inform them & the 1st thing that came out of the customer care persons mouth was it's legal in the UK??? 

Why would you say that knowing it's morally wrong and unethical especially when O2 are fully aware of this scam??

She told me that she had put a third party block on my account (which doesn't actually help me now as they have already been taking £4.50 each week from me since Dec 2018 and we're now in April)

She then called Lasevia who re-confirmed that they were calling me within 48 hours which they didn't so I had to chase them.

When they did call I was basiclly told because I didn't respond to the text they were not refunding me.

This company knows it's a scam but they also know that most people will not call some random number if they cannot see it coming out of their bank account and have no idea that it's actually coming out of their account.

My problem with O2 is that they have been aware that their customers have been getting scammed for over a year possibly 2, plus all the stories are pretty much the same yet they have chosen to not only ignore our complaints and do nothing about these complaints but haven't safeguarded their customers by warning us that this has been going on & to be on the look out for either this kind of scam or this particular company.

Why is it you have set this community forum and have chosen to ignore whats being said, I was told when trying to get a 3rd line for our son that the reason they wouldn't price match EE was because they were a Premier Network, I asked how are they compared to EE & Vodaphone and even 3, I was told because they had the O2 Priority APP????

This shows this network thinks they are clearly so big that they are a bit or maybe alot out of touch with they're consumers as every Network offers some form of incentives similar to O2 so just because you put Priority on an app doesn't mean your a Premier Network

service, price, After care, Morality and Safeguarding of your customers are what make you Premier all of which you have lacked and after today has all but gone in mine and my families eyes.

All the above that O2 have seem to of forgotten over the last 4 odd years as this has got worse plus a Premier Network wouldn't allow their customers to be openly scammed and leave us to fend for ourselves when trying to re-coup the money back which is basically what they have done to myself.

I was told that they don't get involved in 3rd party companies so told me that I would have to go through to they're regulator which I had to call them a further 2-3 times to insist that they get the information for me as Levesia wouldn't get back to me for 3 days.

I have been left high and dry by O2 along with other customers and I'm encouraging everyone to get in contact with the Ombudsman on details I will leave below as their defence is weak especially when they are telling me that because they have the My O2 app that we can monitor our charges but my problem is that alot of people on O2 just about know how to get around the phone, some of these people are pnsioners or kids that have a phone for security so what about them??

How about take action on behalf of your customers and don't entertain this scam company which I can see you have been told before yet you have done NOTHING!!!! Not even warned us about this scam that is prominent and to the point where you told one customer that the feedback about this Rouge company was Hearsay.

I blame O2 as this would never of happened to me if they had taken action from all the complaints that have come in so it begs the question WHY, Why are you choosing to stay silent on the issue, Why haven't put anything in place barring putting a restriction on third party companies on my phone AFTER I have been scammed (another weak defence)

What is it that they are paying you to keep them on your platform and to Rip off your customers as it must be good considering your willing to defend your actions & send your customers away with a fight on their hands and give mis information for what isn't thousands and not even hundreds in a certain amount of cases but in terms of morally and a duty to protect the consumers that trust you would have their best interests at heart YOU HAVE FAILED.

I wish I didn't have to chase O2 regarding a Third Party that has scammed me

I wish O2 had acted on the countless amounts of complaints and well documented issues regarding Lasevia.

I wish I didn't have to spend an hour while at work on the phone after being told by O2 customer service the night before that I would be refunded to then be told that I'm on my own.

I wish I didn't then have to spend more time writing this because O2 really don't seem interested in warning other O2 customers or stop allowing Lasevia to do this to their customers:

Please contact the below if you want to complain about O2 and their sheer lack of safeguarding, consideration and understanding of protecting their customers or taking action on FRAUD ACTIVITY on their network:

Ombudsman Services contact details
Address: PO Box 730, Warrington WA4 6WU
Phone: 0330 440 1614
Fax: 0330 440 1615
Textphone: 0330 440 1615
Email: osenquiries@os-communications.org
Website: www.ombudsman-services.org/sectors/communications

Also the details of the REGULATER they fob you to to sort it out yourself: http://psauthority.org.uk.

I apoligise for this long post but enough is enough something needs to be done otherwise whats the point of having a forum to give feedback.

[MI5]

We have some help for you here https://community.o2.co.uk/t5/How-to-Guides/Have-you-fallen-for-or-been-conned-into-a-premium-rate-s... and here https://payforitsucks.co.uk/ and a petition here https://community.o2.co.uk/t5/Discussions-and-Feedback/Premium-rate-services-petition-to-O2/td-p/118...

[jonsie]

It has been alleged on here that O2 profit to the tune of 30% from each charge which is why they are happy to continue to allow these scams. O2 are well aware they are not the premier network these days. They may have the biggest customer base but are trailing badly in customer care.

[TallTrees]

Hi @Mike4tr 

There is a petition from the o2 forum

regarding this issue and many have

put their names to it  

(as mentioned by MI5)

doesn't feel like alot but Big Oaks grow

from little acorns.

Best of luck 

[Payforit_Sucks]

@Mike4tr 

Hi Michael

I share your anger at the continued failure of O2 to protect its customers from these Payforit scams.

I have been campaigning to put a stop to these scams for the past 18 months, and set up the payforitsucks website to help victims of Payforit fraud.

The essential problem is that these services, whilst probably operating illegally, are very difficult to challenge. As you will have found, nobody takes any responsibility for this fraud. You are told to contact the company responsible for the “service” you were signed up to. However, these companies are often based outside of the UK and can be difficult to pursue.

Where these companies are based in the UK we have had a great deal of success leveraging the Small Claims procedure. However that will not help your case as Lasevia Ltd are registered in Cyprus.

You need to know that the ombudsman will not adjudicate on cases involving Payforit charges, so that route is effectively closed.

There are three options open to you to resolve your complaint:

•  Insist that O2 meet their obligations under the Payforit rules and under their own published procedures. Advice on following this route is here: https://payforitsucks.co.uk/formal-complaints-to-mobile-providers/
• Pursuing O2 through the Small Claims court. As Lasevia have been scamming O2 customers for almost a year, but no attempts have been made to protect consumers. Lasevia do not follow the recommendation of the PSA for two factor authorisation of Payforit services. I believe that you have a strong case to claim your loss from O2, citing their negligence. A template letter before action is here: https://payforitsucks.co.uk/letter-before-action-network/
• Pursuing Tap2Bill, the level 1 provider who took the money from your account and gave it to Lasevia Ltd. In some cases they will intervene voluntarily and obtain a refund for you. Failing this, a letter before action, followed by a claim in the Small Claims court may be needed. A template letter before action is here: https://payforitsucks.co.uk/letter-before-action-level-1-provider/

These methods are not mutually exclusive. Indeed if legal action is required, there is nothing to stop you naming both O2 and Tap2Bill as defendants.

Also be aware that there is some doubt as to the legality of O2 leaking your number to third parties via Payforit. This issue is considered here (together with links to template complaint letters): https://payforitsucks.co.uk/gdpr-issues/ 

There is one other thing you can do to help stop these scams. The PSA are currently consulting on new rules for Payforit subscription services. These rules call for two factor authorisation for these services. Such a measure will defeat the exploits currently being used by companies like Lasevia to auto-subscribe consumers when they click  link on a website. Please respond to the onsultation to help ensure that these measures are put in place. 

Consultation details are here: https://psauthority.org.uk/research-and-consultations/consultations/2019/february/consultation-on-th...

My own (draft) response to the consultation is here:  https://payforitsucks.co.uk/the-psa-proposals-for-reform-of-subscription-services-a-missed-opportuni...

I hope you manage to resolve this issue. If I can be of further help, do not hesitate to contact me.

Paul

[Mike4tr]

Thank you so much for your reply, Sorry I've been working and I have already spent alot of time going back and forth with them but funnily enough as soon as I quoted the information you told me I should ask for and then read the O2 Procedure that they should of done but customer service and namely Karen Hargreaves from the Complaint Review Team didn't follow.

I'm not holding my breathe on them refunding me right away and I'm fully prepared to take this all the way and continue to expose what O2 are doing to their customers until they basically stop so please keep me informed of any changes and I will update you on how I get on but again I cannot thank you enough for providing me with what I need to fight this.

Mike

[Mike4tr]

Just an update:

Over the last week with the help of payforitsucks.co.uk I have been trying to resolve the the issue I have had with O2 and Lasevia adding money to my phone bill.

This has been extremely frustrating where customer services who are well aware of the SCAM with Lasevia and similar 3rd Party companies defending Lasevia and implying that it is maybe all our faults for not checking our phonbills when we are not made aware by either O2 or Lasevia that the charge is actually getting added to our bill and not our bank account but funnily enough when I asked all of these customer service agents whether they would text or call back a random number that they were texted telling them that they had subscribed to something they know they 100% hadn't the answer was NO???

Over this week alone I have spent close to 3-4 hrs being sent to every other organisation that O2 claim that can and will help me but all tell me O2 are fully aware they cannot so this is obviously a another tactic to ware customers down.

I have been unable to get proof from Lasevia regarding when, where and which site I used to subscribe which I know that cannot provide and O2 just not willing to intervene considering the problems and complaints they have received and that have been posted.

I have been left with no choice but to take Lasevia to small claims court for my refund and a separate case against O2 for negligence etc where I will be claiming compensation and I really do recommend that others do the same and post the problem on all their social media as that is the only way O2 may stop running this clearly lucrative scam they are clearly apart of as I cannot see why a network that claim they are a premier one decide to have this negative PR on their brand and do nothing about while other networks seem to have addressed this.

It's very easy to do a small claims as it's a £25 charge which get's added to what you are claiming and in terms of evidence this is where the web has it's benefits there is so much evidence of Lasevia's activities and O2's lack of urgency and enabling of this rouge 3rd Party I'm more than confident that I will get there in the end.

Shocking that in 2019 we are having at network openly scamming their customers and pushing the blame onto their customers and for anyone thinking of upgrading, taking out another line or new customers please be aware it's not just this issue that is below the standard it should be as they have been declining for the last 5 years in terms of customer service while other networks have upped their game and are relatively cheaper and more flexible when matching other networks offers which I was told by O2 they don't do as they are a Premier network which sounds Ironic now.

[madasaf1sh]

So the first thing the judge will look for in cases like this is:
Have you followed the complaints process all the way upto both ombudsman, and got a final response from all parties before putting a claim., if not the judge may throw the case out.

Also YOU have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that YOU didnt click on or visit a nefarious website / facebook / instagram link.

Reading this you havent logged a DSAR request which all companies have to provide if based or processing EU citizens data as per GDPR regulations.

Im not defending o2 but you dont seem to have followed due process and have no proof you didnt click it / sign up and scarily people do actually sign up to these scams.

I would expect o2 to fight this one, and you may end up paying their costs...

[Mike4tr]

Thank you for your response, I can assure you all of the appropriate procedures and Obudsmans have been contacted and sent me striaght back to O2 telling me that they are fully aware that the Obudsman and PAS cannot help getting the customer a refund.

I also did the DSAR yesterday but thank you for mentioning, also considering neither O2 or Lasevia are willing to provide any details or proof even though both have been reqeasted several times means they are the ones that will have to prove I did visit the site and subscribe which I know they cannot as I didn't.

Thanks

Mike

[Payforit_Sucks]

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@madasaf1sh wrote:
So the first thing the judge will look for in cases like this is:
Have you followed the complaints process all the way upto both ombudsman, and got a final response from all parties before putting a claim., if not the judge may throw the case out.

Also YOU have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that YOU didnt click on or visit a nefarious website / facebook / instagram link.

Reading this you havent logged a DSAR request which all companies have to provide if based or processing EU citizens data as per GDPR regulations.

Im not defending o2 but you dont seem to have followed due process and have no proof you didnt click it / sign up and scarily people do actually sign up to these scams.

I would expect o2 to fight this one, and you may end up paying their costs...

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@madasaf1sh 

Whilst I would absolutely agree with you that it is important to follow due process, the problem here is that O2 are not following due process themselves.

Legally, @Mike4tr does not have to prove that he didnt click on or visit a nefarious website / facebook / instagram link. The burden of proof is on O2 to show that he did! If they are unable to do this he is entitled to a full refund. Also it is a fallacy to suggest that you can be legally subscribed to a Payforit subscription by clicking a single dodgy link. This does not constitute consent in UK law. There is supposed to be a two step process to signing up, with clear rules about what has to be displayed to the consumer at each stage. If this process is not followed, consent has not been given. As should be obvious to anyone reading these forums, scammers have found ways of using Javascript exploits in web pages to auto-subscribe consumers when they click a single link. Companies have already been fined or this, so there can be no dispute that it is happening.

Once a consumer has discussed their dispute with the "third party" that took their money, the Payforit rules say that the consumer can escalate the dispute to them.

The Code of Practice to which O2 are expected to adhere also says:

Each mobile operator will take responsibility for ensuring that customer queries and complaints are dealt with in accordance with their regulatory obligations under General Condition 14. This includes resolving complaints directly or ensuring that the API or merchant clients resolve them in accordance with its internal processes and contractual obligations. If there is an allegation that an API or merchant is not properly dealing with the complaint, a mobile operator will secure resolution of that complaint directly.

The problem seems to be that O2 are blocking consumers from escalating their complaints in this manner. In these circumstances it is wholly reasonable for the consumer to pursue other avenues, including the Small Claims court.

We have had considerable success using this procedure against the "third parties" themselves, but of course this is only an option for UK registered companies.

Where the "third party" is a company like Lasevia Ltd or SB7Mobile Ltd, I believe it is negligent of O2 to fail to protect their customers and to continue to treat these companies as "trusted partners". Thus I believe there is a valid claim in law against O2.

You should also be aware that the ombudsman will not take cases involving Payforit. They will not take any case which is regulated by the PSA as opposed to Ofcom. However, if O2 were following the correct procedure they should be issuing a deadlock letter and offering ADR. The fact that they have closed the matter without doing this will help support a claim in the Small Claims court.

O2 have so far been reluctant to try their luck in court. In all the cases I have dealt with the matter has been dealt with by a full refund before the commencement of court action.

It is important to be clear that before considering using the small claims procedure against O2 you should have the following:

• A clear refusal by O2 to follow the procedures in the Payforit rules and Code of Practice. This may take the form of a refusal to refer the matter to someone more senior. Get this in writing.
• Evidence that this is not an isolated incident, but a fraudulent activity that O2 should have been aware of from previous complaints. Trustpilot reviews and complaints in online forums can be useful for this purpose.
• A clear statement of what you require to settle your complaint. Either a full refund, or evidence of exactly how the subscription was initiated. Full details of the evidence you should ask for is on the payforitsucks website.

The letter before action should also contain the references to evidence that these signups can occur as a result of fraud. Full details and template letters are on the payforitsucks website.

The danger is that a consumer will start action without the necessary pre-requisites. In such a case O2 may fight back, and the consumer could lose. Although small claims cases don't establish legal precedent, it would still be unfortunate if this were to happen.